Will only people that have faith in Christ go to heaven?
in Religion

realDugan · October 2017

There are numerous religions in the world, many in which require "works" to earn incentives. For Christianity, no "works" are needed, only faith in Christ. Therefore, it can be argued that only Christians (people who believe in Jesus Christ) will go to heaven. Do you think everyone will go to heaven? Or, only people who have absolute, unwavering faith in Jesus Christ? Arguments should cite Biblical scriptures as evidence.

missmedic · October 2017

The Christians make it sound believing, or not believing in god is a choice, when it is not. because only if we can be held morally responsible for our beliefs can disbelief be treated as a sin. It isn't possible to defend the idea of atheists going to hell unless they can be held morally accountable for their atheism.

realDugan · October 2017

@missmedic I think I see what you're saying here. For the sake of this argument, let us assume that their is a God and you are held morally responsible for belief and disbelief.

Evidence · October 2017

realDugan said:

There are numerous religions in the world, many in which require "works" to earn incentives. For Christianity, no "works" are needed, only faith in Christ. Therefore, it can be argued that only Christians (people who believe in Jesus Christ) will go to heaven. Do you think everyone will go to heaven? Or, only people who have absolute, unwavering faith in Jesus Christ? Arguments should cite Biblical scriptures as evidence.

Everyone?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Luke 18:6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Only 8 were saved the first time God destroyed the earth. And the prediction for the second and last destruction is even less promising.

As for believing in Jesus Christ, or accepting Jesus Christ, we have to ask one simple question: "Which one?"

Wake · October 2017

Only those people who adhere to Christian PRINCIPLES will go to heaven.

A man comes before St. Peter. St. Peter tells him to explain the manner of his death. He says that he came home in the middle of the day to surprise his wife naked. He knew that she must be having an affair and grew into a rage looking all about the house for the culprit. He looked in every room and then looking out onto the balcony of the third story apartment he spies fingers holding onto the ledge. He grabs up a cane he owns and begins beating on the fingers of a man that is hanging off of his balcony. Finally the man is forced to release his grip and falls three stories. The married man looks over the balcony to see that the man had fallen into a large patch of bushes and was laying there with a smile on this face. He grew so enraged that he grabbed the refrigerator and threw it down upon the man killing him. Suddenly he realized he had killed a man and he sustained a heart attack and died immediately.

St. Peter says, "This was a crime of passion and your having a heart attack and dying shows that he had honest remorse. You shall be allowed into the gates of heaven."

The next man comes up and St. Peter questions him about the events of his death. The man replies that he was on the balcony of his fourth story apartment when he misstepped and fell over the edge. He said he was extremely lucky and caught the edge of the balcony below. He was trying to recover enough to pull himself up when another man began beating on his hands until finally he was forced to release his grip and fall. He miraculously handed safely in some bushes and was laying there smiling at how God had protected him when a refrigerator had landed on him killing him instantly.

St. Peter deslares, this was a death not of your choosing. "You have otherwise led a moral and ethical life and show enter the gates of heaven."

The third man in line approaches and St. Peter asks him of his death. The man starts, "Here I was hiding in a refrigerator......

missmedic · October 2017

@realDugan ; I do not believe in heaven, hell or any of the descriptions of god, put forth by any organized religion. I do not think that a man should live in fear of the god he may choose to believe in.

Evidence · October 2017

missmedic said:

@realDugan ; I do not believe in heaven, hell or any of the descriptions of god, put forth by any organized religion. I do not think that a man should live in fear of the god he may choose to believe in.

@missmedic
Agreed, I don't believe in a gods put forth by organized religion either. They tend to over exaggerate the word "fear" spoken of in the Bible. Many Religions even use it to put fear into peoples hearts, not the "love" this fear supposed to signify.

Jeremiah 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.”

Now think back when we were little children, .. have you ever wondered off from your mom or dad and fell in fear crying for them? I see that a lot in big stores, .. where kids wonder off and start crying for their parents. They are "afraid" both loosing them, and also the reprimand they will get when the parents find them, especially if they've been missing for hours, .. right?

Well THAT is the "fear" that is mentioned in the Bible.

But here is the thing, you have to have a close (parent-like) relationship with God before you can "fear Him". Like the lost child, he/she will not accept just any stranger, but will be fearful and cry till she finds her parents that she loves, and knows without a doubt that these parents, .. her parents, love her.

Now if you read Jeremiah 32:40 again, it makes more sense, right .. I hope?

missmedic · October 2017

@Evidence

I understand your point, I just don't agree with your source.

Wake · October 2017

@missmedic - if you were educated in Christianity you would discover that you are not supposed to live in fear of God but of not leading a moral and upright life. Is it that you simply do not care what happens to those around you?

Evidence · October 2017

missmedic said:

@Evidence
I understand your point, I just don't agree with your source.

@missmedic
Because it's from the Bible? Have you read any good self-help books other than the Bible? What's the difference? I know it's hard to find a self-help book that doesn't have some reference to the Bible, especially quotes by Jesus Christ, .. but still, what would be the difference if the source was not Biblical?

Oh wait, .. do you mean source like "Organized Religion", .. l9ike Christianity, right?
I gave you the Biblical version, not the Christian Religion version. It is the Bible that represents God for me, not any Religion. So why don't you try to come to know Bible God, our Infinite and Eternal Creator "I Am"? He is much friendlier than any Religion version of god/gods I can promise you that!

missmedic · October 2017

@Evidence

As with most we do not share the same understanding of the Bible. The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means for overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books called the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigma. And yet the perfect God expects the imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

missmedic · October 2017

@Wake

I was raised Christian and I learned that the Christian god has to many descriptive failings, contradictions and limiting attributes to be a my god.

Evidence · October 2017

missmedic said:

@Evidence
As with most we do not share the same understanding of the Bible. The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means for overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books called the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigma. And yet the perfect God expects the imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Thank you missmedic, actually that was nicely put. I used to struggle with the same questions myself, often daily, and many different ones too, until I started to read it outside of the box, outside of how "They" want us to understand it.

Yes, you are correct that we don't have the same understanding of the Bible, and am glad you provided a glimpse into your understanding of it.

Yes, you are also correct that within a few chapters the Bible jumps into "instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell." But that's NOT how the Bible starts out, because if you would have looked a little more closer, you would have seen that 'God's perfect Word' starts out with Gods "perfect World" inhabited by Gods perfect creation, an image of Himself, man.

As for as your comment: "How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means for overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible!

are you saying that every wrong you do is Gods responsibility? Even wild animals know that they are responsible for their actions! That their lives depend on it!

missmedic - Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

That's why I keep saying that we must leave Religions, stop depending on our government and its leaders (voting), retake our minds, and read the Bible as if for the first time! This way, the message now is personal. Between you and God. Don't worry, if you get stuck, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to come and help us.

Evidence · October 2017

missmedic said:

@Wake
I was raised Christian and I learned that the Christian god has to many descriptive failings, contradictions and limiting attributes to be a my god.

... yes, the Christian god does have descriptive failings, contradictions and limiting attributes, I agree. That's why we should seek the God of the Bible, not the god of Christianity, or any other Religions god/gods!?

Wake · October 2017

missmedic said: I was raised Christian and I learned that the Christian god has to many descriptive failings, contradictions and limiting attributes to be a my god.

@missmedic -that's only because you're perfect in every way and can see the failings of God.

missmedic · October 2017

@Wake

Your right of course, fanatics are always right, everything is the lords will.

Think for yourselves, and allow others the privilege to do so, too.

Evidence · October 2017

missmedic said:

@Wake
Your right of course, fanatics are always right, everything is the lords will.
Think for yourselves, and allow others the privilege to do so, too.

First, I clicked 'Fallacy', but then realized you're right; fanatics are always right, and this is supported by whom?
By the 'fanatics'

and those of us dumb cows that believe them.

and again, the fanatics:

and us brainwashed cows who actually believe them

Wake · October 2017

@missmedic - why do I find it as no surprise that you classify anyone with faith as a fanatic. But someone that classifies an entire group of people that are the majority in this country as fanatics is not themselves a fanatic. A mentally ill fanatic.

Wake · October 2017

@Evidence - just out of curiosity - what have you ever done in this world? What have you ever done for anyone else? The hatred that oozes from your postings is comical.

It so happens that I am agnostic but I recognize the overwhelming good that Christianity has achieved. You on the other hand spend your time looking for the extremists and then presenting them as the archetypal Christian.

Just as in all of your other entries into these so-called debates you are nothing more than a center of hatred for anything that is normal. That can only lead one to believe that you are abnormal. Go agree with the flat earthists - you are of the same mind.

Wake · October 2017

@SilverishGoldNova - Perhaps people want it known that creatures like you exist. You are the shooters at Las Vegas or in France. You are the people that loot behind the fires in California. You are the child molesters and the dope pushers. I've lived around your kind my whole life and they've always given me a very wide berth. Because I've seen the death and destruction from people like you. Do you suppose I would allow you to work in any company I've worked for? For that matter were you to introduce yourself to me I would soon discover what you actually are and make it public. I believe you to be a fake whose entire life revolves around making trouble for everyone and everything.

SilverishGoldNova · October 2017

@Wake So lets just dissect this quickly

"Perhaps people want it known that creatures like you exist": Creatures?. Lol.

"You are the shooters at Las Vegas or in France": I mean the Las Vegas and Paris shootings were faked, so I don't really care. "You are the shooters". Please fix your grammar first.

"You are the people that loot behind the fires in California" "You are the child molesters and the dope pushers.". You still can't use proper grammar. And now you have stooped down deeeeeeeep low. You are bringing them up for no reason out of them out of desperation so you can try to attack me because you have no real argument. Also, I don't see any issue with legalized marijuana, so I guess thats the only thing you have said correct.

"'ve lived around your kind my whole life and they've always given me a very wide berth. Because I've seen the death and destruction from people like you. " So you've been around alot of flat Earthers. That would explain why you are comparing people who disagree with you to looters and rapists since even then you didnt want to change your view. "Death and destruction". You sure? Or are you just pathetic?

"Do you suppose I would allow you to work in any company I've worked for? For that matter were you to introduce yourself to me I would soon discover what you actually are and make it public. I believe you to be a fake whose entire life revolves around making trouble for everyone and everything." The majority of your posts have been bragging about you working at some company... name it. Bragging and comparing people who disagree with you to looters and rapists isn't an argument by the way, its childishness. I'm going to leave before this thread gets flooded with your vacuous comments

Fascism · October 2017

@Wake

Wake said:

@SilverishGoldNova - Perhaps people want it known that creatures like you exist. You are the shooters at Las Vegas or in France. You are the people that loot behind the fires in California. You are the child molesters and the dope pushers. I've lived around your kind my whole life and they've always given me a very wide berth. Because I've seen the death and destruction from people like you. Do you suppose I would allow you to work in any company I've worked for? For that matter were you to introduce yourself to me I would soon discover what you actually are and make it public. I believe you to be a fake whose entire life revolves around making trouble for everyone and everything.

Equating normal people with criminals is not just wrong, but also bad for society. For example, if someone makes a claim that she got raped by a man, but it happened to be that that man didn't actually rape her, but just catcalled her, then the next time a real rape claim is made, there is skepticism that the rape claim is true or not.

Equating normal people with criminals takes away the problem from the real threat and the real criminals. The attention is no longer put on the real criminals, but wasted on fake ones. Instead of making these fake claims, why can't you just condone actual criminals?

This is present when looking at poverty for black people. The problem isn't because of businesses, and schools being racist against blacks. It's because of gang violence, and the nature of the black communities, that leave an affect on the black people. Because of this false accusation, black communities are still in deep poverty. The problem isn't solved the right way because of people not recognizing the actual cause of it.

(Just saying in a friendly way), don't just call everyone you disagree with as criminals. It not only worsens the situation by not convincing them, but also convinces them to do the same to you.

SilverishGoldNova · October 2017

@Fascism Wake is pretty... vacuous. He never has any logic or evidence to support his side, so he's left with ad hominem attacks, often going as far as comparing people who disagree with him to criminals. He sometimes goes with the standard "ignorant idiot" ad hominem, and he joins threads to attack literally everyone with ad homs.

Wake · October 2017

@Fascism - There is a large difference between crying rape where none exists and telling everyone that will listen that the Earth is flat and the center of the universe. This is so far whacked out that these people are capable of anything. I've no doubt that this guy believes in the Kennedy second shooter on the hill or the latest - there were two shooters in Las Vegas when you can clearly see by the graph of the bullet shots that there couldn't be.

SilverishGoldNova · October 2017

Wake said:

@Fascism - There is a large difference between crying rape where none exists and telling everyone that will listen that the Earth is flat and the center of the universe.
Its about time you admit that. You see, you have no argument, no evidence either, and you never will, so you were stuck with comparing people who disagree with you to rapists and looters. You finally admitted that has no merit

Evidence · October 2017

Wake said:

@Evidence - just out of curiosity - what have you ever done in this world? What have you ever done for anyone else? The hatred that oozes from your postings is comical.

It so happens that I am agnostic but I recognize the overwhelming good that Christianity has achieved. You on the other hand spend your time looking for the extremists and then presenting them as the archetypal Christian.

Just as in all of your other entries into these so-called debates you are nothing more than a center of hatred for anything that is normal. That can only lead one to believe that you are abnormal. Go agree with the flat earthists - you are of the same mind.

It's not what I have done, but what you and I do that's important. I'm not "done" yet.

"Good that Christianity done"? Believe me if anything 'good' has been done, that wasn't the Religion called Christian. That was the "people who read the Bible and try to follow Christ teachings", .. BIG difference.

For instance: Remember mother Teresa? What she 'done', was follow Christ's teachings, like in: "Love one another as I have loved you", so she helped the poor. But what she did for the Christian Religion, or as you call it "Christianity" is irreparable evil. Throughout her life she has helped turn millions of good hearted young girls to idols, to pray to a goddess called Mary, to pray the rosary and worship the antichrist the man who calls himself "the holiest Father", .. also the "vicar of Christ" and other blasphemies.
Do you see the difference?

Yes, .. I am the center of hatred against evil, against those who cause most of the pain and suffering in this world. Like the ones that just took away 1/3 of my Social Security, because they are angry that they couldn't kill me yet, so they're angry that I'm taking away from the money that THEY feel is theirs, and doesn't belong an "evolving sub-human" like me.

Agree with the FE's? No, I only agree that the Earth is flat, and with any related subjects. Remember I'm not in any religion, .. I never 'joined' any "Flat Earth Society".

Erfisflat · October 2017

I can't believe he said he's been associating with all these types of criminals all of his life. @wake, are you a lifelong inmate?

SilverishGoldNova · October 2017

Erfisflat said:

I can't believe he said he's been associating with all these types of criminals all of his life. @wake, are you a lifelong inmate?

Yeah like, @Wake you say you have a long experience with these people. Like, how many gangs were you a part of? How many kids did you molest? How long were you in the KKK?

Fascism · October 2017

@Wake
So what if they're different from rapists? The way your insulting them doesn't solve anything, and blurs the line between rapists and flatearthers anyways. You first equated them with criminals, but now you say it's different. It happened in rape cases, so it can happen here. It's the same thing. It doesn't solve the problem by convincing them either. It just makes them insult you back.

SilverishGoldNova · October 2017

@Fascism Well after that little scolding I gave him about equating us with criminals, He is now saying everyone on the internet should have their real name and address published in order to make sure people don't disagree with him

http://dev1.debateisland.com/discussion/1316/should-anonymity-be-allowed-on-the-internet

His entire argument was based on the fact we're flat Earthers, and he's calling us racist for stating the fact it's authoritarian. WTFFFFFFFFF

ViceRegent · November 2017

Yes, those who God has saved, as evidenced by their faith in the Biblical Christ, go to heaven. The rest are damned by God for their sin, suffering hell as their just punishment.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent If that is how god is going to be then I would not wan't to go to gods heaven anyway.

ViceRegent · November 2017

Right. You would rather go to Hell than submit to God. He honors your choice.

Schnuupi · November 2017

Considering you'd first have to believe there IS a heaven which so far all evidence says there is not. Then my answer is no. No one is going to heaven.

ViceRegent · November 2017

@Schnuupi

When one asserts that reality is dependent on their beliefs, you know they are delusional.

But tell us what “evidence” says heaven is not real? This ought to be be hilarious.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent If you claim heaven is real what evidence do you have? Saing because god said so is a week argument. If you wish to prove to us heaven is real you should do it in a way the is logical to us "delusional humans" because only then can we be convinced. That means physical evidence. Not trusting some random person online who claims god said so. I will like to hear both sides of the argument. and yes I know you don't really care what ! would like or think. : 0

ViceRegent · November 2017

Truth is truth no matter whether you think it is “weak” or not, and the mentally ill are beyond logic. Indeed, the fact that you seek physical evidence for the spiritual only confirms you are mebtally ill.

Evidence · November 2017

Schnuupi said:

Considering you'd first have to believe there IS a heaven which so far all evidence says there is not. Then my answer is no. No one is going to heaven.

@Schnuupi .. I must have gone to at least a hundred funerals in my life, .. theist/atheist, and heard a funeral service from just about every Major-theist/atheistic Religions, NOT ONE, .. this includes the deceased person who was a full blown atheist, .. was said that he didn't go to heaven because he didn't believe in it. The service always ended up with them having gone up to heaven to be with the Lord. So how can you say: "No one is going to heaven"??

So buddy, either way you are going to heaven, your 'loved ones' will send you there, .. whether you like it or not!

WilliamSchulz · November 2017

Hey!

I feel like this is an interesting topic, and while I can't provide you with too many Bible passages, I can provide you with reasoning behind them. In this argument, I will assert that any person can make it to heaven, and that the Bible points towards this.

First, it would be impossible to discern how God will judge us, but we do have an idea of what he considers just in the passages of the Bible. Let us consider the passage of Exodus. God leads his chosen people out of captivity from Egypt and drowns the Egyptians who try to recapture the Israelites during the crossing of the Red Sea. In this case, God judges betrayal with a swift hand, as Pharoh had originally agreed to let the Israelites go free. In fact, in Dante's Inferno, the people who betray others are at the lowest circle near Satan, who betrayed God in the beginning of time. However, just because people are God's own does not save them from judgement themselves. When they complain and grope, God grows weary and sick of their complaining, and it is shown that Moses has to act like a mediator between God and his people, as visible through the 10 commandments and Moses administering bread and water to the people. When Moses starts to lose faith, God forbids him from entering the Promised land, but Moses gets to see the land before he dies.

Let's try to apply these passages through a modern day lens. I am a Catholic, and I will adamantly defend my faith and assert its teachings. However, other people may also think their religion is correct and that mine is wrong. I could say that Catholicism was the original, has transsubstiation, and all other religions came after the Reformation or the split of the East and West, however one might not buy this and make arguments for his own.

This is why I believe God judges each person differently at the end of time. God might have a certain set of guidlines, but in the end, it is our own free will that God uses to decide our future. This is why any person can make it into heaven. I might be a Catholic, but I can murder, steal, and a bunch of other immoral things, and despite believing in Christ, I would not make it into heaven, because my ethical and moral character does not follow my beliefs. Conversely, a Christian who is not a Catholic or just believes in his religion in Christ, but leads a life worthy of God, by preaching the word, sacrificing to charity, and leading a virtuous life will allow him into heaven, regardless that his religion may have been flawed.

In conclusion, I believe that since God judges us with a moral and ethical character, any person can achieve eternal joy, and despite what some people judge blasphemy, profanity, or other wrongs to be, if God chose the person to achieve glory as a saint, he probably can see the person's true heart, and forgive any sins the person had done in his / her life.

Thank you for reading this argument, and thank you for your time.

Imbster · November 2017

NIV John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

What you gonna do now? Hello I am a Sunday school assistant and it always bothers me that little kids think God is santa determining if they are naughty or nice when the given doctrine of the church is just to believe Jesus is the saviour the way, did miracles, the son and all that and you are guaranteed heaven.

WilliamSchulz · November 2017

Imbster said:

NIV John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

What you gonna do now? Hello I am a Sunday school assistant and it always bothers me that little kids think God is santa determining if they are naughty or nice when the given doctrine of the church is just to believe Jesus is the saviour the way, did miracles, the son and all that and you are guaranteed heaven.

I can understand where you are coming from, but one way that you can tell the children in Sunday school about John 14:6 is by telling them about free will. You will have to tell them that they are not guarenteed heaven, but it is open to those who are virtuous and worthy of God's kingdom in the choices that they make. Choices made comes from free will, or the ability to chose right or wrong.

Children at such an age might believe that Santa does exist, and at that age, it is okay to let it go until they find out the truth. However, you could possibly allude to Saint Nicholas, who was very similar in deeds to secular Santa.

Hope this helped!

WilliamSchulz · November 2017

Evidence said:

Schnuupi said:

Considering you'd first have to believe there IS a heaven which so far all evidence says there is not. Then my answer is no. No one is going to heaven.

@Schnuupi .. I must have gone to at least a hundred funerals in my life, .. theist/atheist, and heard a funeral service from just about every Major-theist/atheistic Religions, NOT ONE, .. this includes the deceased person who was a full blown atheist, .. was said that he didn't go to heaven because he didn't believe in it. The service always ended up with them having gone up to heaven to be with the Lord. So how can you say: "No one is going to heaven"??

So buddy, either way you are going to heaven, your 'loved ones' will send you there, .. whether you like it or not!

Evidence - I would argue something a bit different, in that at a funeral service, the hope is that you achieve heaven. One of the causes of the Reformation was people trying to bribe people into heaven, which was extremely wrong, and is one of the reasons the Protestants came about. Therefore, you can't argue that your loved ones will send you to heaven, that is God's judgement. As humans, we can hope that God's mercy will allow the person into heaven, because during a period of grief, uplifting words are better to say than "He was an alright guy who could go either way."

WilliamSchulz · November 2017

Evidence said:

Schnuupi said:

Considering you'd first have to believe there IS a heaven which so far all evidence says there is not. Then my answer is no. No one is going to heaven.

@Schnuupi .. I must have gone to at least a hundred funerals in my life, .. theist/atheist, and heard a funeral service from just about every Major-theist/atheistic Religions, NOT ONE, .. this includes the deceased person who was a full blown atheist, .. was said that he didn't go to heaven because he didn't believe in it. The service always ended up with them having gone up to heaven to be with the Lord. So how can you say: "No one is going to heaven"??

So buddy, either way you are going to heaven, your 'loved ones' will send you there, .. whether you like it or not!

Evidence - I would argue something a bit different, in that at a funeral service, the hope is that you achieve heaven. One of the causes of the Reformation was people trying to bribe people into heaven, which was extremely wrong, and is one of the reasons the Protestants came about. Therefore, you can't argue that your loved ones will send you to heaven, that is God's judgement. As humans, we can hope that God's mercy will allow the person into heaven, because during a period of grief, uplifting words are better to say than "He was an alright guy who could go either way."

Nightwing · November 2017

Satan believes in Christ. After all, he's fighting Christ all the time. Does that mean Satan goes to heaven?

WilliamSchulz · November 2017

Nightwing said:

Satan believes in Christ. After all, he's fighting Christ all the time. Does that mean Satan goes to heaven?

No, because although Satan believed in God, he rejected God, thus denying himself eternal life in heaven.

WilliamSchulz · November 2017

I would also like to restructure my argument that I first made, in that although anyone can make it into heaven, they must first be a Christian or have some sort of belief in Jesus.

Evidence · December 2017

WilliamSchulz said:

Hey!

I feel like this is an interesting topic, and while I can't provide you with too many Bible passages, I can provide you with reasoning behind them. In this argument, I will assert that any person can make it to heaven, and that the Bible points towards this.

First, it would be impossible to discern how God will judge us, but we do have an idea of what he considers just in the passages of the Bible. Let us consider the passage of Exodus. God leads his chosen people out of captivity from Egypt and drowns the Egyptians who try to recapture the Israelites during the crossing of the Red Sea. In this case, God judges betrayal with a swift hand, as Pharoh had originally agreed to let the Israelites go free. In fact, in Dante's Inferno, the people who betray others are at the lowest circle near Satan, who betrayed God in the beginning of time. However, just because people are God's own does not save them from judgement themselves. When they complain and grope, God grows weary and sick of their complaining, and it is shown that Moses has to act like a mediator between God and his people, as visible through the 10 commandments and Moses administering bread and water to the people. When Moses starts to lose faith, God forbids him from entering the Promised land, but Moses gets to see the land before he dies.

Let's try to apply these passages through a modern day lens. I am a Catholic, and I will adamantly defend my faith and assert its teachings. However, other people may also think their religion is correct and that mine is wrong. I could say that Catholicism was the original, has transsubstiation, and all other religions came after the Reformation or the split of the East and West, however one might not buy this and make arguments for his own.

This is why I believe God judges each person differently at the end of time. God might have a certain set of guidlines, but in the end, it is our own free will that God uses to decide our future. This is why any person can make it into heaven. I might be a Catholic, but I can murder, steal, and a bunch of other immoral things, and despite believing in Christ, I would not make it into heaven, because my ethical and moral character does not follow my beliefs. Conversely, a Christian who is not a Catholic or just believes in his religion in Christ, but leads a life worthy of God, by preaching the word, sacrificing to charity, and leading a virtuous life will allow him into heaven, regardless that his religion may have been flawed.

In conclusion, I believe that since God judges us with a moral and ethical character, any person can achieve eternal joy, and despite what some people judge blasphemy, profanity, or other wrongs to be, if God chose the person to achieve glory as a saint, he probably can see the person's true heart, and forgive any sins the person had done in his / her life.

Thank you for reading this argument, and thank you for your time.

Greetings @WilliamSchulz
You said: Let's try to apply these passages through a modern day lens. I am a Catholic, and I will adamantly defend my faith and assert its teachings. However, other people may also think their religion is correct and that mine is wrong. I could say that Catholicism was the original, has transsubstiation, and all other religions came after the Reformation or the split of the East and West, however one might not buy this and make arguments for his own.

First, let's separate religion like our religious duties that both theist and atheist could do out of sincere love for his fellow man, .. from Organized Religion like your Catholic created 'Christian Religion'.
What you said above is that you, just like the others who belong to an Organized Religion will adamantly defend your faith in it, .. in your Religion and its doctrines, correct? This is where the "believe their Religion is correct, and yours is wrong" comes in, NOT in our 'religious duties'.
Nobody will argue over me taking a walk for 20 minutes every morning starting exactly at 6AM religiously. But when you defend your "Religions Doctrines" religiously, like transubstantiation, that can cause all kinds of problems! For instance from what I understand, transubstantiation is cannibalism, it's what Satanic cults do, and what they did in the Movie 'Hostel 2', drink peoples blood and eat their flesh while the victims were still alive.

Transubstantiation: (especially in the Roman Catholic Church) the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining. - Google

So what I understand from the event recorded in the Bible to be symbolic since it doesn't say that; "Jesus cut a tiny piece of meat from his thighs, and prick his fingers to get some of his blood into a cup" for his Apostles to eat and drink, .. so it's symbolic. No need to "pray to some Deity in the supernatural realm" so it could through some supernatural event turn the bread into real human flesh and the wine into blood, .. matter of fact, from everything Jesus taught us, we should make absolutely sure no one got such demonic idea, .. don't you agree?

I know, .. you can't from what you said: "I will adamantly defend my faith and assert its teachings"! So the fact is that it's either Organized Religion, .. or the Bible, and from 60 years of experience, Organized Religion has always won, hands down for "they bear the sword".

I'm still looking for another soul who is even willing to try to think outside of the box, but 1,700 years of Indoctrination, generation after generation it seems it has become part of our DNA or something!?

You also say that "Catholicism was the original", .. original what?
From what I understand of History, Catholicism was just another pagan Religion even while Jesus was walking here on earth, something like 7BC!? And from what I can gather from their doctrines, they must have thought that Jesus and the Apostles were doing some pretty awesome magic healing the sick and raising the dead, .. this is why when they gathered all the scrolls, and letters from the Early Believers they thought God was a Deity who ruled from the supernatural realm, and the Apostles were nothing but good magicians, .. just like how Pharaoh thought what Moses miracles were, .. magic.

So when the mock word Christian that the people of Antioch were calling the Believers became popular (like we use the word Goodie-two-shoes) around 325 AD with the help of the Roman Emperor Constantine, the Catholic Religion adapted the mock name Christian, only they weren't ashamed of it, or suffer because of it because with Constantine's sword, .. instead of turning the other cheek, they turned others cheek, including decapitating the heads of anyone opposing them.

You also said: "In conclusion, I believe that since God judges us with a moral and ethical character, any person can achieve eternal joy, and despite what some people judge blasphemy, profanity, or other wrongs to be, if God chose the person to achieve glory as a saint, he probably can see the person's true heart, and forgive any sins the person had done in his / her life."

We, .. (not Christians which includes the Catholic and thousands of Protestant denomination/non-denominations) .. but Disciples of Christ judge blasphemy, profanity, or other wrongs, which includes whose going into Heaven, .. from Gods Word written in the Bible. Not by the Vatican, or the Pope who claims to be the vicar of Jesus-god and whomever he chooses to deify as a saint. Christ made it perfectly clear how we should judge blasphemy, profanity or other wrongs.

Evidence · December 2017

WilliamSchulz said:

Evidence said:

Schnuupi said:

Considering you'd first have to believe there IS a heaven which so far all evidence says there is not. Then my answer is no. No one is going to heaven.

@Schnuupi .. I must have gone to at least a hundred funerals in my life, .. theist/atheist, and heard a funeral service from just about every Major-theist/atheistic Religions, NOT ONE, .. this includes the deceased person who was a full blown atheist, .. was said that he didn't go to heaven because he didn't believe in it. The service always ended up with them having gone up to heaven to be with the Lord. So how can you say: "No one is going to heaven"??

So buddy, either way you are going to heaven, your 'loved ones' will send you there, .. whether you like it or not!

Evidence - I would argue something a bit different, in that at a funeral service, the hope is that you achieve heaven. One of the causes of the Reformation was people trying to bribe people into heaven, which was extremely wrong, and is one of the reasons the Protestants came about. Therefore, you can't argue that your loved ones will send you to heaven, that is God's judgement. As humans, we can hope that God's mercy will allow the person into heaven, because during a period of grief, uplifting words are better to say than "He was an alright guy who could go either way."

@WilliamSchulz
Yes, I agree. What I was doing is pointing out how lightly Christians take Jesus Christ, and not much changed after the Reformation. The Christian god is still a Trinity, some deities/demons that reside in the supernatural realm who they keep contact with through mediums, Christian Diviners, who got their degree in Divination from schools of Divinity.

as I said that I have been to many funerals in my life, and even when the deceased was a God hating, womanizing, blaspheming atheist who just hated the idea of the Ten Commandments since it came from God, and should this be the time of persecutions in this Country (which is coming soon) he would have been right there in the front lines beating and torturing Believers to try to convert them, and burning Bibles.

Let's name this guy Richard. Here is Rich laying there in the casket with all the families and friends in mourning, acting as if he was the most righteous man that ever lived. Even saying: "How will we survive without him? The world is now poorer without him. God must have really needed him to take him from us so young!" and BS like that, when they know what a conniving, backstabbing and yes, even Believers hating devil he was!

Here is how I believe a true Minister of our Lord Jesus Christ would start the service:

“There was a certain man named Rich who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from Rich’s table. Moreover, Rich seen the dogs came and lick his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.

Richard also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

“Then Rich cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, yet you blasphemed our Lord, hated the Disciples, and likewise Lazarus you ignored, and even laughed at him as he licked the crumbs from under your table. All his life this man suffered from the abuse from you, and your brothers all the evil things you guys put on him; .. but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

“Then Richard said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have the Bible and in it; Moses and the prophets; let them read it, hear what they have to say.’

And Richard said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not want to read the Bible to hear what Moses and the prophets have to say, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

WilliamSchulz · December 2017

Evidence said:

WilliamSchulz said:

Evidence said:

Schnuupi said:

Considering you'd first have to believe there IS a heaven which so far all evidence says there is not. Then my answer is no. No one is going to heaven.

@Schnuupi .. I must have gone to at least a hundred funerals in my life, .. theist/atheist, and heard a funeral service from just about every Major-theist/atheistic Religions, NOT ONE, .. this includes the deceased person who was a full blown atheist, .. was said that he didn't go to heaven because he didn't believe in it. The service always ended up with them having gone up to heaven to be with the Lord. So how can you say: "No one is going to heaven"??

So buddy, either way you are going to heaven, your 'loved ones' will send you there, .. whether you like it or not!

Evidence - I would argue something a bit different, in that at a funeral service, the hope is that you achieve heaven. One of the causes of the Reformation was people trying to bribe people into heaven, which was extremely wrong, and is one of the reasons the Protestants came about. Therefore, you can't argue that your loved ones will send you to heaven, that is God's judgement. As humans, we can hope that God's mercy will allow the person into heaven, because during a period of grief, uplifting words are better to say than "He was an alright guy who could go either way."

@WilliamSchulz
Yes, I agree. What I was doing is pointing out how lightly Christians take Jesus Christ, and not much changed after the Reformation. The Christian god is still a Trinity, some deities/demons that reside in the supernatural realm who they keep contact with through mediums, Christian Diviners, who got their degree in Divination from schools of Divinity.

as I said that I have been to many funerals in my life, and even when the deceased was a God hating, womanizing, blaspheming atheist who just hated the idea of the Ten Commandments since it came from God, and should this be the time of persecutions in this Country (which is coming soon) he would have been right there in the front lines beating and torturing Believers to try to convert them, and burning Bibles.

Let's name this guy Richard. Here is Rich laying there in the casket with all the families and friends in mourning, acting as if he was the most righteous man that ever lived. Even saying: "How will we survive without him? The world is now poorer without him. God must have really needed him to take him from us so young!" and BS like that, when they know what a conniving, backstabbing and yes, even Believers hating devil he was!

Here is how I believe a true Minister of our Lord Jesus Christ would start the service:

“There was a certain man named Rich who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from Rich’s table. Moreover, Rich seen the dogs came and lick his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
Richard also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then Rich cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, yet you blasphemed our Lord, hated the Disciples, and likewise Lazarus you ignored, and even laughed at him as he licked the crumbs from under your table. All his life this man suffered from the abuse from you, and your brothers all the evil things you guys put on him; .. but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then Richard said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have the Bible and in it; Moses and the prophets; let them read it, hear what they have to say.’
And Richard said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not want to read the Bible to hear what Moses and the prophets have to say, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

I will respond more in detail to the post above yours later, however, I want to point out that condemning people is not part of being a priest. It is not the job of a priest to condemn people to hell, that is God's job, and hey, God might have mercy of the man and take him into Purgatory. We don't know, because as humans, we can not fully understand the nature of God's judgement, therefore, the hypothetical scenario is not for the priest to judge. Instead, the priest should say, "He was not a perfect man in life, and he did much wrong through his life, yet we pray that by God's mercy, he will be forgiven."

WilliamSchulz · December 2017

I also understand that you are using a quote from scripture, but changing the rich man to Richard, touche.

NathanAllen · December 2017

@realDugan I see religion and heaven this way, I believe because what will it hurt if I do not? I am not losing anything for believing in a higher power if I am right and their is a heaven I have everything to gain, but if I am wrong I have nothing to lose.

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